Five Wishes: A Simple, Affordable Living Will for Women

living will for women

Five Wishes is a wonderful tool for creating a simple, affordable living will for women and their families.

I first stumbled across Five Wishes in early 2019.

In fact, I wrote about it in April of that year.

Since then, as I’ve come to read and learn more about Five Wishes, I’m more and more convinced that it’s a tool that virtually everyone can and should use.

They even have a version for children.

So I was excited about the opportunity to speak with Paul Malley and Alexis Jacobs recently.

Paul is the President of Aging with Dignity, the creators of Five Wishes.

And Alexis is a Partner Relations Coordinator, and my primary contact, with Five Wishes.

Not only are they some of the nicest people you’ll meet, they share a passion for helping others, especially those who are or will eventually be faced with some difficult decisions around their care in the event of an injury or illness.

In our conversation, which you can listen to below, we covered each of the Five Wishes and why they’re important.

They shared a wonderful story about how Five Wishes has made a positive impact in the lives – and families – of those who’ve used it.

And of course, we talked about how and why Five Wishes is especially important for women as they prepare for retirement and their future lifestyle.

Click play below to listen to this episode of the Women’s Retirement Radio podcast:

If you’re interested in learning more or getting your own copy of Five Wishes, I encourage you to visit their website.

And if you have any questions for me or would like to discuss how Five Wishes might play a role as part of your comprehensive financial plan, please get in touch and let me know.

Thanks for listening. I invite you to subscribe and share this podcast with your friends and family.

Simple, Affordable Living Will for Women Episode Transcript:

Russ Thornton
Hello, and welcome to another episode of women’s retirement radio. I’m your host, Russ Thornton. And today, I’m really excited to be joined by both Paul Malley and Alexis Jacobs, of the aging with dignity organization. And we’re going to talk about a variety of things this morning. But among among them, I really want to focus on their Five Wishes solution, which I think is just great. And I’ve written about before, on my blog, so I’m really excited to have have you with us, Paul and Alexis.

Paul Malley
Thanks for us. It’s It’s great to be with you and with your listeners. Yeah.

Alexis Jacobs
Yeah. So in a long time organizing

Russ Thornton
Yeah, we Yeah, this this did take a little logistical ninjitsu to get it on the calendar, get everything lined up, but I’m happy to be speaking with you guys today. So rather than me attempting to and potentially not doing it justice Why don’t you guys tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do and why you do it?

Paul Malley
Sure. Sounds good. So aging with dignity is a private nonprofit organization. We’re based in Florida. But we work nationwide and in fact, internationally and in service to people and helping individuals and families plan for the type of care they’d want in case of a serious illness. As far as our roots go, our our mission our why behind our work, is that our founder Jim to he worked directly with Mother Teresa of Calcutta for over 12 years. He served as a volunteer and some of her homes for the dying in India and in Mexico and in Washington, DC. And he was also her legal counsel. And, and I think the most important thing to know from that experience is that he saw in sitting by the bedside of those who are very sick, that there were some comments threads that unite all of us, no matter where we are, no matter if we’re rich or poor, young or old, if we’re living with a serious illness, we all want to be known. We want our dignity to be acknowledged and respected. And there are some simple ways to do that. It can be as simple as having somebody by your side holding your hand, talking with you using your name, those types of things. So we created the Five Wishes solution that you mentioned, the Five Wishes program, that just makes it easy for all people, all adults, everybody 18 and over to put some practical guidance down in writing, and talk about it with their family so that if a serious illness occurs, for either you or somebody you love or a close friend, you don’t have to guess what they would want. And that’s what has spread all over the country. Now we’ve had 40 million or so people who have used Five Wishes, people of all ages. And we’re just grateful for the impact that we’ve been able to, to achieve, not by our own work, but because of individuals and families and organizations that have taken five wishes and brought it into their homes and used it and shared it with the people who they know.

Russ Thornton
So that’s fascinating about the history with Mother Teresa and the organization, how long has aging with dignity and the Five Wishes program been around?

Paul Malley
So a little over 20 years. Five Wishes was introduced as a pilot project first in Florida, in 1997. And we had generous funding from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation to launch Five Wishes and create it. And and to be honest with you, we didn’t have a plan to make five wishes. The most widely used Advanced Directives in the country that wasn’t that wasn’t a thought in 1997. But we were we weren’t Quite frankly surprised by the response from families across America who wrote to us, just because they heard about Five Wishes, they they read about it in a newspaper story or they saw it on television. It was featured on the NBC today show. And, and so because we had families writing to us from all across the country, the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation asked us to create a national version of Five Wishes. And we were just really grateful to work with the American Bar Association’s Commission on Aging to look at the legal issues in all 50 states and and to now have a document Five Wishes that meets the legal requirements and in 42 states and is usable and in all 50 states. So that’s how that’s how we started really was from an idea that we saw that Five Wishes could meet a need for families, and we thought if it could help a handful of families that would be fantastic. And families responded kind of MS by saying this is Exactly what we need, send us five or 10 or 20 so that we can we can all work through this together.

Russ Thornton
Well, I don’t know that there’s a better testament to how effective and easy to use five that Five Wishes is than you know, word of mouth and, and obviously the kind of the, the grassroots spreading of the word and people becoming more and more aware of it. That’s how I actually was introduced to Five Wishes in your organization. A couple years ago, I think I had read an article by another financial advisor that was talking about how they use it or introduce it to virtually all their clients. So I think that’s, I think that’s fantastic. So rather than rather than continuing to build the suspense, why don’t we Why don’t we tell the listeners exactly what Five Wishes is and kind of what it’s designed to help with?

Paul Malley
Sure. So it’s basically And Advanced Directive. It’s a legal document that meets the legal requirements and almost all states. It’s a 12 page booklet. So when you receive it, from ordering it out, and Five Wishes org, you might either order a paper document or a digital document. And the first wish, lets you name a person who you trust to make healthcare decisions for you. So you’re naming a person who would be your voice if you’re not able to speak for yourself. And that could be because you’re recovering from a surgery or you were just in a car accident, or you had a sudden illness. It’s not only for somebody who is approaching the end of life, it’s for anyone who, for even a limited amount of time can’t speak for themselves. It answers the question who would speak for you? Then the second wish touches on the question of life support treatment when you would want it or not want it if you are approaching the end of life. And then the third, fourth and fifth wishes are what really separate Five Wishes and I think, strike at people’s hearts because it talks about what would help you to feel comfortable. What would help you to feel like your human dignity is being acknowledged, it talks about physical comfort. If you’d like to have people with you, if you’d like to be at home, if you’d want somebody holding your hand, if you’d want to be massaged and and you know, some people are all about the massages and they want to be massaged and other people say I’m ticklish I don’t want anybody touching me. And you know, those, those things, they can sound like they’re, they’re kind of hokey or they’re simple or they’re small. But when somebody is caring for someone, they love those things make all the difference in the world. So the form is, it’s easy, it’s simple to fill out. There’s some people that fill it out in 10 minutes and other people that give it a lot of thought and, and, and really, you know, might write in the margins or attach pieces of paper to it. The idea behind it is that you are the person who knows knows you best and your family best and your close friends. So the magic isn’t so much in Five Wishes the magic is in what you bring to talking about it and to filling it out.

Russ Thornton
Yeah, and I think that’s a great one. Sorry, sorry, Alexis, I think I think it’s a great point that you’re really just providing kind of a process or a structure with which to have, you know, either conversations or to think through these important decisions. But But go ahead, Alexis.

Alexis Jacobs
Oh, I was I was gonna say that, I think another strength and uniqueness of Five Wishes is the accessibility. You know, it’s available in 29 different languages, and I believe we’re working on a 30th right now, which is very unique for a medical document, very unique for a legal document. And it’s written in everyday language. So you know, there’s not this barrier to Well, I don’t have an advanced degree and you know, the medical field But I can understand what’s being asked of me. I can understand, you know how to answer this because it’s not in legalese. It’s not in jargon. And it’s very simple for anyone to pick up and approach more simply and less, maybe less intimidation.

Russ Thornton
Yeah, I think the I think the plain English aspect of it is, is really important. It dispenses with as you said, the legal ease there. There are no here two fours and fourth widths and other other, you know, kind of attorney language you would see in more traditional estate planning documents. And I think Paul, you referenced this referenced it earlier as an advanced directive tool, which I’m based in Atlanta, Georgia, and Georgia has what is called or what they refer to as their advanced directive for health healthcare. But I think a lot I think a more common commonly recognized term is a living will. And and I think this is a great solution to make to make that less intimidating, less overwhelming and more more of an approachable digestible service that you to your to both your points you can personalize and kind of make make your own to be clear this does not this does not replace your your will and last testament it does not, you know, replace any other like power. You can I guess, as you said with the with the first of the Five Wishes, I guess you can essentially designate the what would essentially be a power of attorney for healthcare. Is that accurate, Paul? Or is that outside of the Five Wishes document?

Paul Malley
You’re You’re exactly right on on all the things that you just said wish not which one is similar to the durable power of attorney for healthcare and wish to is what’s similar to most what’s what’s commonly referred to as the Living Will that asks the question about life support treatment, so You’re right on.

Russ Thornton
And this is a this is recognized as a legally binding document in not all 50 states, but certainly the majority of them. I believe it’s recognized as a legal document here in the state of Georgia. You don’t need to list all of them. But is that that accurate that and certainly the majority of the US, it’s recognized as a legal legal document.

Paul Malley
That That is correct. So it meets the legal requirements now in 44 states. And there are a handful, so just six states, states like Texas and Ohio and Oregon and Kansas and New Hampshire, and Indiana that has specific form requirements. So what that means is that if you are you have a family member who lives in one of those states, you can still use Five Wishes and then you’d want to ask your doctor or or attorney in that state for that state’s form as well. And then put the two things together.

Russ Thornton
Got it. Got it. So Since the work that I do, and this podcasts really kind of circles around women’s retirement and, you know, concepts and ideas that relate to women as they’re planning for retirement or the next chapter of their lives, how do you guys think that Five Wishes might play an important role for women as they’re thinking about their not just their financial future, but just their, their the future of their lifestyle?

Alexis Jacobs
Well, advanced care planning is specifically important for women and I think in two major ways. One being we know generally women live longer than men, which means that women typically will be more likely to need long term care go into assisted living, etc. And so it’s important for them to put their wishes in place so that if and when they can no longer speak for themselves, or their spouse is not there to speak for them or partner or family members, their wishes are still known. And that kind of goes into the second second point, which would be that, you know, while women are more likely to need and receive long term care, they’re also more likely to provide it. Women tend to make up the majority of caregivers in the country, whether they’re caring for a spouse, a friend, a family member, even even children, women are more likely to take up the role of informal caregiver, which makes it particularly important that the entire family has an advanced care plan in place just to help alleviate some of the stress and, you know, the burden of choosing that would fall on her shoulders if and when something were to happen. And I mean, Paul, and I were talking earlier anecdotally, you know, we receive calls all the time. And it’s usually the kind of the matriarch of the family who’s calling in, she’s most likely to be the one to kind of prompt the rest of the group to engage in the conversation. And, you know, whether that’s just her family role or whether that’s more culturally regular for for women to feel less intimidated by conversations about death or planning ahead. That does seem to be the case. It’s a uniquely kind of female caregiver role that I think gets taken on in those situations. So it’s particularly important for women to plan ahead, you know, whether there’s a barrier to financial resources, which I’m sure you deal with in your work as well. Or if it’s just being that matriarch, that’s usually a role that’s taken on by women more more often than men.

Russ Thornton
Yeah, I thanks for that, Alexis, I couldn’t agree more. And I’ve experienced that both personally and my family, and certainly among my clients who are either aging or I’m working with adult children who are having to now think about caring for their aging parents. And yeah, that, that that role often falls either deliberately or not so deliberately to, to the adult daughter. And and yeah, I often find them in that in that caregiver role, at least in some regard. So, I think, to your point, it’s smart to think through and have some structure around these potential decisions or caregiving needs, you know, before you’re kind of knee deep in it. And so I think I think there’s a real opportunity here to think about Think ahead, plan ahead, especially around kind of the the questions and the conversations that can be spurred by each of the each of the five wishes. So thank you for that. Clearly, I think Paul, you said earlier that you’ve been like 40 million people that that have purchased and reuse the Five Wishes program. So I’ve got to think that among that number of people, you guys have have had some, some interesting stories and some, some some great successes could just Could you share one of those with us?

Paul Malley
Sure. Yeah. You know, that and those are the things that really give us the the fuel and the passion for our work and the dedication that we have to be of service. And you mentioned that, that Five Wishes, doesn’t take the place of the last will and testament and that’s true, and I want to echo that. But I think some of the motive Patients that people have are similar to the reason that they would contact an attorney and set up the last will and testament, or work with a financial planner. Some of that is to make sure that what they want to happen, happens, say what their property or with with custody of their children if we’re thinking about those who are younger, and the last will and testament and financial planning, but also I think many people are motivated just as much to make sure that they avoid what they don’t want. And for families, oftentimes, that happens, and we hear from them because of a story that went badly a family caregiving example, that that that did not happen the way that the family would have wanted. And too often that means that sometimes siblings are left to guess what their mom or dad would want. And we’ve heard way too many stories of brothers and sisters who don’t speak to one another again. their parent died because there was disagreement. And, and as a father myself, that idea would just break my heart. So one example that I would share with you is an example of a woman who came to me after I spoke at an event up in New England. And she said that that day that we were speaking it marked the year anniversary of her husband’s death. And they were in their mid 60s. And as she told me, her son, her husband had a sudden stroke at home. And he was in the hospital for the last 20 something days of his life a little over three weeks. And she said, because he had filled out his five wishes. She remembered after day two after she had spent the night in the chair next to him in the hospital, that he had written in his five wishes that he wanted to have pictures of his grandkids in the room with him. So she said after two days of sitting at his bedside and not knowing what to do, I remembered Five Wishes, I remembered the pictures of the grandkids and I was able to go home and get those pictures and bring them into the hospital and put them up on the bed stand next to him, and know that I was doing something that he cared enough about to ask for it. And that’s something that we hear from caregivers so often is that we all want to do right by the people we love, whether it’s a spouse or a parent. But when we’re in the position of caregiving, we’ve never done this before. So we don’t know what to do. And Five Wishes turns out to be basically an instruction book for what good care means for you or for the person that you love. And the last part of their this family’s story was that after a few weeks went on, and it was clear that her husband was not going to recover. They made a decision to remove life support treatment. And at that time, their children flew into town they had their children were scattered in different parts of the country. And one of her sons has had Been estranged from the family for many, many years. And he flew into town and he went to the nurse’s station. And he objected to the decision that his mom had made for his dad, and said, That’s not what I want to do. I want you to continue to offer the life support treatment. That’s what we need to do. And it wasn’t until the mother brought out the Five Wishes and thinking back to a lexuses remarks about so often it’s the matriarch who takes the lead, and both the conversation and in this case, the implementation, and she showed this document to her son, and her son looked at it. And the thing that drove the point home to him was on the last page, he saw his dad’s signature. And he got to that last page and he stopped and he just looked at his dad’s signature. And he said, it looks like dad already made this decision for us. So let’s do what dad wanted. And right then in that instance, that was a family disagreement that could have resulted in chaos and ethics committee. Consult or even a legal proceeding. And it was avoided because this family this couple took the action years before to have a simple conversation and put their wishes down in writing. And it wasn’t just a medical or legal issue, but in this case, it made all the difference for their family. That’s an example of what Five Wishes can do.

Russ Thornton
Well, and I, I can only imagine that’s one of probably dozens, if not hundreds of great stories where Five Wishes is really helped to make a difficult situation a little less difficult for all people involved. That’s right. Is it something just came to mind. So it let’s let’s say someone completes the Five Wishes. And let’s say they’re in their 60s, for example, does it make sense for you know, maybe every couple years to review it again, this Did you have you found that that people’s wishes change over time, depending on, you know, changes in life circumstances or family matters or whatever the case may be, or do you have you found that it’s, it’s it’s a it’s usually a pretty evergreen document once they complete it the first time.

Paul Malley
people’s wishes do change. Absolutely. So we do encourage you to go back and look at any advanced directives that you’ve completed. If you’re listening to this, and and you think that you’ve placed a checkmark in that box on your to do list, because you filled out an advanced directive, maybe even with a an attorney five or 10 years ago, I would suggest that you go back and look at it and make sure that it matches what your preferences would be today, because you’re exactly right, Russ. When people do that, they often call us and say, I looked at that form that I thought I had in my file or I did have it in my file, and and it doesn’t represent what I would want today. And because there’s no expiration date on it, the document doesn’t expire. But if, if you if your family or doctors are called on to look at your advanced directive and make decisions based on it, you can imagine that a document that is 10 years old, might have some more questions tied to it, they might ask themselves well, is this what dad wanted today, even though he filled this out 10 years ago. So definitely good to update it, especially if it’s been many years. And then in addition to just regularly looking at it every few years, you would want to update it if you have any change in life circumstance, if there’s been a death in the family, particularly if it’s anyone who you named in which one is your healthcare agent. If you’ve had a change in your marital status, either married or divorced or a spouse died, if you’ve had a change in your own health condition or a new diagnosis, that would be a time to update your document. So so it doesn’t expire. It’s something that you want to keep current because once it’s In your medical chart, hopefully, it will be looked at and a time that you might be experiencing a serious illness and especially if a decision has to be made.

Russ Thornton
And speaking of medical chart is this is Five Wishes a document that you would suggest people share with their primary care doctor or their other medical support team, or is it just is it more typically just presented at the time of need by a spouse or other family member.

Paul Malley
You want to fill it out and then don’t keep it a secret. Once you’ve signed it, dated it and have and have it witnessed by two people. And all those instructions are included in Five Wishes that tells you exactly what to do and what order to do it. And who can be a witness and who can’t. Then you’d want to make copies of it and give a copy to your family. Give a copy to the person who you’ve named as your healthcare agent in wish number one, give a copy to all your adult kids. To your spouse, to your siblings if they would be involved in care decisions. And then yes, the next time you go to your doctor, bring a copy of your five wishes to your doctor asked to talk about it and ask that it be included in your medical record today that would likely be an electronic medical records. So, so it’s it’s absolutely in your power to ask that that happen. When you visit your doctor, whether it’s an in person visit or today, a lot of doctor’s visits are happening by telehealth. So this is something that you can talk to your doctor or your nurse practitioner, or whoever you’re consulting with on the healthcare side, even from telehealth, talk with them about it and either give them a copy if you’re in person or send a scanned copy of your five wishes to your healthcare provider and ask that it be included in your medical chart. Got it?

Alexis Jacobs
And I would, I would add Oh, sorry.

Russ Thornton
Go ahead. Good, Alexis.

Alexis Jacobs
I would add that you should also maybe share it with As your attorney, you know, if you do have an estate plan or a financial advisor, just the the more people who are involved with your your care and your estate plan who have access to it, the more likely it is that, you know, it will be accessible if and when something happens. And we know of people who also share it with their faith leader, you know, if there’s specific things that you would want your faith to be involved in. So basically, anyone who is involved or that you would like to be involved, I think is important to share with them.

Russ Thornton
That’s Yeah, that’s, that’s great. And I wouldn’t have thought about Faith Church coming into it, but obviously, that’s super important for a lot of people. And that’s, I think that’s a great, a great consideration. So thanks for that. What, clearly you guys have been doing this for a long time with a lot of people. What surprised you most about your work with Five Wishes and and its ability to help people.

Paul Malley
Hmm, Ashton? Yeah. Alexis, he talks about your surprise first.

Alexis Jacobs
Yeah, I guess as being a little bit newer, a little bit greener than then Paul, maybe it’s a little fresher for me. I would say the universality of it. You know, my specific role here is, you know, program development and working with partners to develop new solutions. And I specifically work primarily with our non healthcare accounts, which means I work with financial advisors like you and attorneys, HR departments, faith based organizations, nonprofits, etc. And it is used throughout every industry and in various ways. And it’s amazing to me that no matter who I’m talking to, you know what hat I’m wearing on a particular day. It’s the same The kind of conversation that you have, it’s the same things that that strikes them, they’re the same reason that they’re calling in or they’re interested is the universal truths of dignity and having a voice and maintaining, you know, some independence and, and providing this, you know, definitive act of love to your family friends support group. So really just the breadth that we can have support that we can provide, I think is really surprising. You know, you would think it would live primarily in health care or be primarily interesting to people of a certain age or health status, but it’s, it’s so broad, and I, you know, I get to do different things every single day, which is a real blessing. So that’s been the most surprising to me.

Russ Thornton
I don’t see Paul.

Paul Malley
Yeah, I think it’s I think it’s similar in that I’ve seen over these past 20 years. I’ve been working with aging with dignity, that our work just simply touches everyone’s humanity. And there are no boundaries there. It’s not for people that are just at a certain age. And I remember clearly one week that we had requests come to us from an employer group that wanted to provide five wishes to those who worked at their organization. There were two different organizations that did that. One was a barbecue restaurant in Oklahoma, that wanted Five Wishes for all their service servers and their staff at their barbecue restaurant. And the other one was MTV headquarters in New York, wanted to provide five wishes to all of its employees and, and allow them to give five wishes to their family members and their parents and their grandparents. So I thought that was really cool. And just the diversity of it was amazing. And and I think the breadth of people that we’re able to serve at aging, with data Through the Five Wishes program, there are no boundaries. So we’re grateful to be of service to families. And we’re especially grateful for, quite frankly, for people like us who pick up the word and spread it, who fold it into the services that they provide that you provide as a financial advisor as a trusted advisor as an expert. Five Wishes is good prudent planning that makes sense for everybody.

Russ Thornton
Well, I I appreciate that. And that that’s interesting to hear both of your perspectives on the universal University out versality of of Five Wishes and its application and helpfulness. But also just a couple of examples that you gave Paul of that have such a broad spectrum of needs and use cases so. So thank you, both for that is clearly in my mind, it says Like this would that Five Wishes would be really something to consider as people get into their 50s 60s and older, is there in your opinions? Is there? Is there a too young age? I mean, is it does it makes it Can you think of a situation where it would not make sense for someone to think about and complete? Five Wishes? And the reason I ask is like I often think about as children become adults, and they reach the age of majority. I think a lot of parents perhaps mistakenly think that in the event of a correction or whatever, that they can just automatically step in and speak for their children. And that’s my understanding is that’s not necessarily always the case. So could you speak a little bit about not just the types of people but maybe the the different ages where Five Wishes might play an important role.

Paul Malley
Sure, and and the simple answer there is that no age is too young. Five Wishes is intended for all adults. So everybody 18 and over. And we even have additional resources for younger children document called my wishes for young children. And then voicing my choices for adolescents and young adults, most mostly aimed at those younger people who are living with serious illness and planning for their care based on their current serious illness diagnosis. But rest of your right the question comes into play for even our young children. My son is now 18 years old, my oldest son, and that’s that’s the time that he should be filling out five wishes. And we hear that in college campuses often we, whether it’s in person or virtually, are often guest speakers, in college classes. Sometimes it’s in their school of business. Sometimes it’s in human Amenities or religion, or healthcare, their medical department, or nursing school. And oftentimes they come to us and say, Well, this sounds like it would be a great idea for my parents. And we say, yes, it would be good for your parents and your grandparents. And the best way to bring it home to your family, is to fill it out for yourself first. Because young people do have especially the vulnerability to either a sudden onset of a serious illness or an accident. And when we think even from a legal perspective, the big landmark cases that have happened in the United States regarding end of life decisions, and thinking of Terry Chavo, Karen and Quinlan, Nancy cruise and all of those cases involved women in their 20s, who had not given any instruction about what they would have wanted. So I think that that just shows the point that this is something that should be talked about by people of all ages, and the best way to do it. is to gather the whole family together and have a conversation that includes grandparents, parents, and even adult grandchildren.

Russ Thornton
Got it? Yeah, I think those are all great points. So, hopefully, those of you out there listening will will take that to heart and seriously consider, you know, looking into five wishes for your own personal situation as well as that of your family and friends. So, Paul, Alexis, I get the feeling we could probably talk for hours about this I love I love hearing the stories and the reach and the impact that that you and Five Wishes and your organization have had and continue to have. But in the interest of time, I want to ask another question that we can kind of start to wrap things up if that’s okay with you guys. If If there were one thing that women who are thinking about are preparing for retirement could take away from From our conversation today, what would what would you want that one thing to be?

Alexis Jacobs
Well, I would, I would say that to give themselves the gift of peace of mind by doing these, these kind of pre planning steps and, and putting a plan of care in place for themselves, providing that so their, their loved ones, their support team, and making sure that, you know, if and when something were to happen to them or to their loved ones, you know, they’re not going to be the ones, you know, burdened with making a choice that they don’t know. You know, the, you know, you don’t know the answer to so give themselves the gifts and give the gift of peace of mind to everyone that they care for. I think it’s important than to take that and consider it a gift to themselves.

Russ Thornton
Anything you would add to that, Paul?

Paul Malley
I think that’s a perfect one thing. That’s the that’s the right thing to do.

Russ Thornton
I agree, and I It brings to mind something I often say, which is, you know, whenever we take a commercial flight, they always tell you to put the oxygen mask on yourself first before you can help others. And I, I find that many women just naturally assume that caregiving role sometimes at sometimes it’s their own personal expense, whether that’s health or financially related. So I think it’s I think it’s a great suggestion, Alexis, that they, they use a tool like five wishes for themselves to create some peace of mind and some comfort in to address these things before before potentially, you know, long term care or end of life situation is staring him in the face. So So thank you. Thank you both for that. As we wrap up, Alexis, and Paul, what’s what’s the best way for people to learn more or to get in touch or to get their own copy of Five Wishes?

Paul Malley
Sure. So the simplest way is on our online on our web, It’s five wishes.org, it’s five spelled out five wishes.org. And there, I’d suggest you do two things. The first thing is click on the, the option for individuals and families. And there you can see what types of five wishes are available for you and your family. You might even think about getting 25 or more to be able to share with all of your extended family. There are some additional things like discussion guides that will help just set the stage for how to talk with your family about five wishes. And all of these things are are easy to use. And, and because we’re a nonprofit organization, our focus is on on our mission to help you and your family so the cost is very low and we’re talking about $5 or if you get 25 or more Five Wishes they’re $1 per document. So we want to make it easy for you not just to help yourself. And as you said, that’s the perfect thing to do. First, fill out five wishes for yourself, but then share it with your family. And then while you’re on the website, click on some of the other options about how to use Five Wishes in the workplace, for employers, and and faith based communities and churches, and community organizations. Because the way that Five Wishes is able to touch so many lives, is from people who are motivated and inspired and have the passion behind it, to share it with other people. So that’s what we hope you’ll do is use Five Wishes for yourself and your family. And then think about who else in your circle in your community, people you work with the people that you see every day that you might be able to share it with.

Russ Thornton
Yeah, I can only echo Paul’s comments. Definitely go to the website, Five Wishes. org. navigate around it. It’s very easy to navigate and intuitive. If anyone listening to this wants to read Up to me. This is Russ. Phil. Phil, welcome to reach out to me if I can, you know, help facilitate any of these conversations or discussions or add anything to, to the process. I’m happy to help. But again, it’s it’s very plain English easy to use, easy to follow, I would, I would say the best step is just to reach out to Five Wishes, Five Wishes directly and get yourself a copy and start working on it. So with that, before we wrap up today’s episode, Alexis Paul, any final thoughts? Anything you would would add to to our conversation today?

Paul Malley
Well, I would add my thanks to you, Russ, for for giving attention to this topic. It I think it fits well with all of all of the information and education that you provide to your listeners, but sometimes it’s too often it just kind of falls through the cracks. And it seems like it’s so far off. And and it doesn’t get the attention that it deserves. So, so thank you for giving attention to this important matter and for the service that you provide through the information and the education that you share.

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Russ Thornton
Russ Thornton
Hi there! I'm Russ, and I help women in their 50s and 60s achieve and maintain their desired lifestyle leading up to and throughout their retirement years. Imagine being able to look forward to a comfortable and confident financial future...
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